Abraham and his wives? (173 views) Subscribe   
  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/16/2003 12:30 pm  
To:  ALL   (1 of 46)  
 
  629.1  
 
It is nice to get into the tough stuff. Indeed many of the ancient patriarchs had many wives including Abraham. So the question goes, "If polygamy is such a wretched sin, why did God choose patriarchs who were guilty of blatently living against the will of God continually without repenting of their polygamy?" 
Did God command Abraham to multiply? Yes! 

Why couldn't God find a more suitable leader than a polygamous pervert like Abraham? Or perhaps Abraham simply doing God's will. 

What about Isaac and Jacob? 

just a few questions that I do not necessarily have the answers to. 

-Stephen 

P.S. Are Christians going to investigate for themselves and listen to both sides of the issues before making a choice. Paul said to test all things. So do some research on both sides. That is the best way. I have been to anti-mormon websites and read anti-mormon books from cover to cover. I converted to the LDS faith two years ago after finding the truth for myself. 

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/ 




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Edited 6/18/2003 2:31:35 AM ET by NEWSAINT1 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/16/2003 10:33 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (2 of 46)  
 
  629.2 in reply to 629.1  
 
NewSaint1,

These are good questions. 

Why don't you do some research from the bible by posting scriptures and everyone who has a mind to can comment on the scriptures concerning polygamy. 

For the sake of peace, let's just keep the Holy Bible as the basis of our research with selected commentary authorities related to the Holy Bible.  

I believe this will be a good eye opener for everyone. ~Minister Falcon
 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/16/2003 11:46 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (3 of 46)  
 
  629.3 in reply to 629.2  
 
I thought it would be a good topic. Not too many people are willing to look in to the more controversial stuff. It does no good to turn a blind eye and let only detractors ridicule us and turn others away. It is 1:00 am here so I will post just some things to consider before I go to sleep. 
First some background, we do not teach that polygamy is o.k. whenever and wherever, but only as God commands it. This is clearly stated in the Book of Mormon in Jacob 2. At its peak, polygamy was practiced by less than 10% of the membership by which church leaders would choose whom would marry whom. It was not a free for all. (Often some were chosen because they could provide better for more than one family.) This practice began amid persecution when Mormons (especially men and boys) were being murded. An execution order was put forth by governor Boggs in Missouri. We had many more men than women due to these kinds of policies. Polygamy continued for 50 years, then it was stopped. Thereafter, marrying more than one wife was grounds for excommunication. We feel that it was necessary despite the fact it was difficult, and trying (especially amid modern western culture). 

Now some scripture: Polygamy is a way to multiply one's seed rapidly. 
-1 AND when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 

Here, it certainly does not seem like God has a problem with Abraham, his wives, or his concubines. In fact, He commands "be thou perfect" and makes a covenant with him. 

-In Gen 6:24, God told Isaac to "multiply thy seed" 

-In Ex. 32:13 in rembemberance, scriptures states 
"Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, ... 

Scripture: David also practiced polygamy. (Solomon too ... but I am not sure if they were approved by God) 

-2 Sam. 5: 13 
And David took him more concubines and wives out of Jerusalem, after he was come from Hebron: and there were yet sons and daughters born to David. 

-In Gen. Ch. 30 I think it mentions Jacobs wives. 

That is a fairly good start... it is bed time for me anyway, but I can add some more tommorrow (although not much 'cause I will be busy). 

-Stephen 

 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/17/2003 12:14 am  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (4 of 46)  
 
  629.4 in reply to 629.3  
 
Stephen,

Abraham had one wife and one concubine.  Sarah gave Abraham over to this concubine because she was impatient and thought she should take over these circumstances of having a child.  As a result, the child is not recognized by God as having the Holy Seed because a concubine can not be entertained to bring forth a legitimate son.  As we know now, these people are the modern day Arians that is Muslims.  They see Abraham as their father.  

However the Holy Seed is from the union between Sarah and Abraham because they were married.  We are grafted into that Abarham's son, that  Holy Seed which is Isaac.

To multiply the seed by polygamy is the same sin as Sarah giving Abraham her handmaiden to produce a son.  It was not acceptable to God and eventually it was not acceptable to Sarah or Abraham and they were cast out of the camp.  For the sake of the child, and the seed it carried, God did take pity on him because of the blood covenant.  There is much similarities between the Jews and the Muslims however, there is much anomosity between them too.  It is a recapitulation of the story of the two boys, one illegitmate and the other legitmate son.  

Yes David practiced it and so did Solomon.  But as we review history we know that many marriages were made for the purpose of keeping peace and acquiring land between nations.  We know they had multiple children.  But David was not a worshipper of pagan gods.  Whereas Solomon coupled with every pagan wife and never married a Jewess.  He sinned from the beginning as marrying outside of the Jewish nation was sin a polution.  As we read both Kings, we see the results and the problems the Jewish nation faced and were rejected because of the sins of Solomon, their father.

Jacob would not have married anyone but one, the one he truly loved.  He loved only one.  Laban tricked him and lied to him.  Yet Jacob was obedient to the covenant he made with Laban.  Still, Jacob faired well and left Laban's service a wealthy man.  ~Minister Falcon
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/17/2003 12:59 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (5 of 46)  
 
  629.5 in reply to 629.1  
 
Abraham is not Jesus and it is Jesus that is our example so your point is Completely meaningless.

 

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and Finisher of our Faith;

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/17/2003 3:03 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (6 of 46)  
 
  629.6 in reply to 629.5  
 
Abraham is a prophet. Mormons look upon Joseph Smith and succeeding prophets in the same way. We know that they were sinful. Jesus was the only sinless man to ever walk the earth. Even among God's servants, sometimes polygamy is necessary. 
-Stephen 

P.S. Another little tid bit: often in the early days of the LDS religion, marriage did not always involve sex. 



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Edited 6/17/2003 6:18:07 PM ET by NEWSAINT1 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/17/2003 3:07 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (7 of 46)  
 
  629.7 in reply to 629.4  
 
<<<Yes David practiced it and so did Solomon. But as we review history we know that many marriages were made for the purpose of keeping peace and acquiring land between nations. We know they had multiple children. But David was not a worshipper of pagan gods.>>> 
So you admit that there was a purpose in David's polygamy (and Jacob's as well). Then you have Isaac and Moses. 

I doubt that God would have chosen unworthy servants. 

-Stephen 



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Edited 6/17/2003 6:11:29 PM ET by NEWSAINT1 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/17/2003 3:42 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (8 of 46)  
 
  629.8 in reply to 629.6  
 
Except that Abraham knows God and is a Friend of God and well Joseph Smith isnt.

 

How many Great Leaders have descended from Abraham? Many!

 

How many Great Leaders have descended from Joseph Smith? Zero!

 

So it doesnt really seem like God had His hand on Joseph Smith.

 

Abraham was a Prophet an Old Fashion Tried and True Prophet.

 

Joseph Smith is one of those New Prophets, A False Prophet.

 

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org




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Edited 6/17/2003 7:43:02 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/17/2003 4:36 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (9 of 46)  
 
  629.9 in reply to 629.8  
 

<<<Except that Abraham knows God and is a Fried of God and well Joseph Smith isnt.>>> 
I am trying not to lower myself to your standards by making fun of your sentence here, but your assumption that Joseph was not afraid of God ... (that is what you were trying to say wasn't it) is 100% wrong. His fear of the Lord is recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants as well as the History of the Church. Joseph died defending God's teachings and restored church knowing full well that if he backed off, he would have to answer to God. He could have backed away and avoided persecutions, beatings, being tarred and feathered, his children dying because angry mobs broke into his house to violently pull him from his home. 

Even those witnesses of the brass plates who left the Mormon church would not deny their testimonies of the Book of Mormon. Not even on their deathbeds because they knew they must soon answer to God. Would you deny God on your death bed? 

<<<How many Great Leaders have descended from Abraham? Many! 
How many Great Leaders have descended from Joseph Smith? Zero! 
So it doesnt really seem like God had His hand on Joseph Smith.>>> 

First of all, not every prophet has many great descendants. The Bible never says they have to either. Second, you know nothing about Joseph Smith the man or his descendants. So once again, you throw out worthless, opinionated, and baseless comments. Your book must be very interesting. 

<<<Abraham was a Prophet an Old Fashion Tried and True Prophet.>>> 

I agree. 

<<<Joseph Smith is one of those New Prophets, A False Prophet.>>> 

And this opinion is based on what? You certainly haven't done any unbiased research on the subject. Just keep swallowing lies from people like Richard Abanes who clearly misrepresent our faith, use poor research methods, take quotes out of context, and misrepresent quoted material altogether ... http://www.fairlds.org/apol/onug/ 
Halfway down the page you will find specific examples of Abanes' tactics, which are basically lies. 

I found you doing the same kind of twisted misrepresentation on our forum. And you call yourself a Christian. Please show me where Jesus told us to lie in order to persuade others to go our own way. It is really sad. Of course in the end, it only works to benefit the truth. When people find out that they have been lied to, they often seek the truth directly from the source ... God ... who's Holy Spirit testifies of His restoration of the one true church on the earth which is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. 

So who are you going to trust? People like yourself ... or God? 

-Stephen 

 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/18/2003 12:58 am  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (10 of 46)  
 
  629.10 in reply to 629.7  
 
You said:  So you admit that there was a purpose in David's polygamy (and Jacob's as well). Then you have Isaac and Moses. 

What I stated is that David did have multiple wives and concubines.  The purpose was not godly, even though it was done.  Sin is sin, no matter how important the purpose is explained or excuse used by man.  God's word does not coming back void to Him .  In the NT it states clearly that we are to be of one wife, not multiple wives when it comes to leadership in the five-fold ministry.  If the moral law is held up for the leadership, it is held up for the laity.

Did you do the research on Isaac and Moses to see if they had multiple wives or concubines?  If you did would you post your findings with scripture verses?  

Indeed God does pick unworthy servants but because He is God He changes us to be in His nature and character.  We all fall short of the glory of God...have you not read that?  

God bless Stephen ~Minister Falcon
 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    6/18/2003 7:21 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (11 of 46)  
 
  629.11 in reply to 629.10  
 
Good Morning

You have stated that David had multiple wife but that purpose was not Godly. How do you figure this when God gave David wives?

I am not sure about Isaac having multiple wives but I believe that Moses had one wife of Ethopia and another of Media (sp?)

Bob 

 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/18/2003 7:30 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (12 of 46)  
 
  629.12 in reply to 629.11  
 
The point is still that Jesus was never Married.

 

And put a Shirt on when you come to this forum, this is a Christian forum, we do not appreciate the Mormon Smut that is so common on your ungodly forums.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    6/18/2003 7:40 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (13 of 46)  
 
  629.13 in reply to 629.12  
 
The point is that you have not demonstrated that Jesus was never married.  Furthermore the topic of discussion was multiple wives not whether or not Jesus was married.
Bob 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/18/2003 7:44 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (14 of 46)  
 
  629.14 in reply to 629.13  
 
The point is Mormons are trying to pass off humans as equal to God.

 

People are not the standard Jesus is and we Christians will continue to follow Jesus while you Mormons can continue to chase after men.

 

Thank you for removing your graphic.

 

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    6/18/2003 8:52 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (15 of 46)  
 
  629.15 in reply to 629.14  
 
You keep switching points. I wonder why that is. 

I agree that Jesus is the Standard. I have never said otherwise. The Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints follow Jesus not any man. 

The pic in my sig is my default and I wll not promise to remember to remove it inthe future.

Bob 
 
  
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  From:  clrose1   6/18/2003 11:02 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (16 of 46)  
 
  629.16 in reply to 629.14  
 
Where do you come up with the idea that mormons equate mere humans with God. Man is not equal to God, and never will be. We can achieve what He has though. 
  
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  From:  ScottQuantz   6/18/2003 11:17 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (17 of 46)  
 
  629.17 in reply to 629.4  
 
You: "Abraham had one wife and one concubine." 
Me: You're the ordained preacher, right? Who was Keturah? 

You: "To multiply the seed by polygamy is the same sin as Sarah giving Abraham her handmaiden to produce a son. It was not acceptable to God and eventually it was not acceptable to Sarah or Abraham and they were cast out of the camp." 

Me: ===========. This is not biblical. ===============. 

Abraham was blessed by Hagar's posterity. It was a gift from God. The sin was Sarah's for being jealous of Hagar and that of Abraham for listening to Sarah. 

Then there is the little problem you're having when you refer to Hagar as a concubine. Please provide the scripture that confirms Hagar was a concubine. 

Don't waste a lot of time. There is none. You're implication that Abraham committed adultery is contradicted by a passage in James wherein he, Abraham, is called a "friend of God". (James 2:23) 

Judah forfeited his birthright for consorting with a woman to whom he was not married. Abraham's blessings were multiplied because he didn't. 

Then there is the other problem you have with Abraham's grandson. 

Are you going to suggest that Rachel was a concubine. How about Leah? 

Which of their children are bastards? The book of Ruth states: 

"...The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel..." (Ruth 4:11) 

Do you see that your little extra-biblical theory is resting on a foundation of sand? 

Then you skipped Moses who, after marrying Zipporah, daughter of Jesse, married an Ethiopian woman and the Lord punished Aaron and Miriam for complaining about it. (Numbers 12) 

You: "Yes David practiced it and so did Solomon. But as we review history we know that many marriages were made for the purpose of keeping peace and acquiring land between nations. We know they had multiple children. But David was not a worshipper of pagan gods. Whereas Solomon coupled with every pagan wife and never married a Jewess. He sinned from the beginning as marrying outside of the Jewish nation was sin a polution. As we read both Kings, we see the results and the problems the Jewish nation faced and were rejected because of the sins of Solomon, their father." 

Me: I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you suggesting David's polyandry was righteous and Solomon's was not? 

By your theory with Hagar, any off-spring David had with anyone except his first wife was illegitimate and the "Holy Seed" didn't follow that line? Are you suggesting the same is true for any children born to David except those born to his first wife? 

You also made a bold statement that Solomon never married a "Jewess". How do you know? The Bible certainly never makes that claim. Is this just more extra-biblical theory? 

I thought you wanted to use the Bible and only the Bible to support your claims. It appears you're using something more. 

Here are a few more you might want to explain: 

Genesis 4:19 
Genesis 26:34 
Exodus 21:10 
Deuteronomy 21:15 
1 Samuel 1:2 
1 Chronicles 4:5 
2 Chronicles 11:18 
2 Chronicles 13:21 

I am really interested in your reponse to my "Holy Seed" question where David is involved. 

Scott 






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Edited 6/18/2003 4:59:49 PM ET by OSMFALCON 
  
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  From:  ScottQuantz   6/18/2003 11:18 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (18 of 46)  
 
  629.18 in reply to 629.5  
 
You: "Abraham is not Jesus and it is Jesus that is our example so your point is Completely meaningless." 
Me: Did Jesus say something about polygamy that I missed? Perhaps you will be kind enough to lead me to the passage. 

Scott


 
  
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  From:  ScottQuantz   6/18/2003 11:20 am  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (19 of 46)  
 
  629.19 in reply to 629.7  
 
If we go by the record, Isaac had only one wife... Rebekah. 
Scott


 
  
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   From:  ScottQuantz   6/18/2003 11:22 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (20 of 46)  
 
  629.20 in reply to 629.8  
 
You: "Abraham was a Prophet an Old Fashion Tried and True Prophet." 
Me: Can you name a prophecy made by Abraham that has come true? 

Scott 



 
  
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From:  NEWSAINT1   6/18/2003 11:31 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (21 of 46)  
 
  629.21 in reply to 629.10  
 
<<<Indeed God does pick unworthy servants but because He is God He changes us to be in His nature and character. We all fall short of the glory of God...have you not read that? >>> 
I am well aware of man's sinfulness and the need for the atonement. I am also aware that God does not make mistakes, nor does he choose his servants unwisely. God correctly chose Abraham, and He correctly chose Joseph Smith. Polygamy was probably the hardest thing for the Saints to practice. Nobody wanted to do it, but they had to. Everyone has different circumstances. As I already mentioned, the Book of Mormon strickly forbids polygamy in Jacob 2, UNLESS the Lord commands it. Anyway, back to the Bible (where the circumstances were much different, but nevertheless)... 

Abraham blessed his son Ishmael that he would be friutful, and God told Abraham not to mourn over him (after Sarah wanted to kick the maid out.) ...and well you know that story. ...fast forward 

God gave wives to another old testament servant. I am rushing all of this because I am busy, and won't be able to post much until next Tuesday, so you will have to pardon me until then. Here is a hint though ... 

2 Sam 12:11 
Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 

You will notice that there was only one wife whom David was not supposed to take, and she was Bath-sheba. His other wives were given to him (in one case it was a fulfillment of prophecy). 




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Edited 6/18/2003 2:50:11 PM ET by NEWSAINT1 
  
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  From:  ScottQuantz   6/18/2003 11:31 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (22 of 46)  
 
  629.22 in reply to 629.10  
 
You: "In the NT it states clearly that we are to be of one wife..." 
Me: Really. Where does it state this (and don't try to use the 1 Timothy passages which refer only to bishops and deacons or the Titus passage that refers only to bishops - not all Christians in general) 

You: "Did you do the research on Isaac and Moses to see if they had multiple wives or concubines?" 

Me: Don't you find it hypocritical to demand such a thing of others when you don't require it of yourself? 

Isaac, as far as the record is concerned, only had one wife. Moses, however, was married to Zipporah - Jesse's daughter - as well as an "Ethiopian woman" (Numbers 12:1). And here I thought you were an expert Biblician... 

Scott


 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/18/2003 11:49 am  
To:  ScottQuantz   (24 of 46)  
 
  629.24 in reply to 629.23  
 
David A. Brown came to our forum spouting all kinds of lies. He said he was the host here so I decided to check things out. I am going on a short vacation (till Tuesday) so I won't be able to hang around. Take care. 
-Stephen 

P.S. Maybe I have time for one more post on this thread.
 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/18/2003 11:57 am  
To:  Bob (BOBKATZHOST)    (25 of 46)  
 
  629.25 in reply to 629.11  
 
<<< Scott: Isaac, as far as the record is concerned, only had one wife.>>> 
<<<Bob: I am not sure about Isaac having multiple wives...>>> 

You guys are right. That was my bad, I was thinking of something else. The Bible has no mention of Isaac having more than one wife. I admit my mistake. 

-Stephen
 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/18/2003 12:13 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (26 of 46)  
 
  629.26 in reply to 629.14  
 
Polygamy in the OT was commonplace. (Let's stick to the topic.) Usually when Men had like thirty sons, you can assume polygamy. It is a way to multiply ones' seed very rapidly (and such was the case with the Mormons). 

Judges 8:30 Gideon, (highly favored of the Lord) - three score and ten sons - many wives. 

Judges 9:5 Jerubbaal - seventy sons. 

Judges 10:3-4 Jair, a judge in Israel, - thirty sons. 

Judges 12:13-14 Abdon, a Judge in Israel, - forty sons. 

I Sam 1:1-2 Elkanah had two wives. His son was Samuel. Samuel was a great prophet and judge. 

1 Chron. 4:5 Ashur - two wives. 

1 Chron. 8:8 Shaharaim - two wives. 

2 Chron. 11:21 Rehoam - eighteen wives and three score concubines. 

2 Chron. 13:21 Abijah - fourteen wives. 

2 Chron. 24:3 Jehoida, the priest of God - two wives. 

To me, it seems that Christianity has not treated our faith fairly. 

-Stephen 

 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/18/2003 12:33 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (27 of 46)  
 
  629.27 in reply to 629.10  
 
If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and [if] the firstborn son be hers that was hated: then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn. (Deuteronomy 21:15-16) 
It seems that the law made allowances for plural marriage, and in some cases required it. (As when a brother died, they were required to take in the brother's wife.) 

Also, Christ himself used a plural marriage wedding in one of his parables. (Matt 25:1-12) 

So, are you as willing to look at this parable in the same way you look at the others? Or only as it suits your doctrine? 

-Stephen 

P.S. I think Danite made a good point on the other forum concerning the metaphor of Christ and his church, bridegroom and bride. Since you don't think there will be marriages in heaven, here is what he said: 

"What does this prove? That God uses marriage as a metaphor for the relationship between Christ and the church does not mean that the Mormons are wrong about marriage being eternal. Or do you think God is only going to love Christians during their mortality and will effectively divorce them afterwards?" 





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Edited 6/18/2003 3:35:01 PM ET by NEWSAINT1 
  
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From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/18/2003 1:51 pm  
To:  ScottQuantz    
 
    
 
Scott,

Keturah was a concubine that became  his second wife after Sarah's death.  

Gen 25:1-11
It has been also noticed that Keturah is called a concubine [1 Chronicles 1:32], which is thought to imply that the proper wife was still living; and that Abraham was a very old man at the death of Sarah. But, on the other hand, it is to be remembered that these sons were in any case born after the birth of Isaac, and therefore after Abraham was renewed in vital powers. If this renewal of vigor remained after the birth of Isaac, it may have continued some time after the death of Sarah, whom he survived thirty-eight years. His abstinence from any concubine until Sarah gave him Hagar is against his taking any other during Sarah's lifetime. His loneliness on the death of Sarah may have prompted him to seek a companion of his old age. And if this step was delayed until Isaac was married, and therefore separated from him, an additional motive would impel him in the same direction. He was not bound to raise this wife to the full rights of a proper wife, even though Sarah were dead. And six sons might be born to him twenty-five years before his death. And if Hagar and Ishmael were dismissed when he was about fifteen years old, so might Keturah when her youngest was twenty or twenty-five. We are not warranted, then, still less compelled, to place Abraham's second marriage before the death of Sarah, or even the marriage of Isaac. It seems to appear in the narrative in the order of time.
(from Barnes' Notes)

====

Hagar was a maidservant, slave and concubine:  OT:8198 shiphchah --

a maid, a maid-servant, a slave-girl 

a) a maid, a maid-servant (as belonging to a mistress)
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon.)

Gen 15:4  Then the word of the LORD came to him: "This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir."  

Ishmael was not an heir therefore not a legitimate son.  Isaac was the heir because he was born of Sarah his legitimate wife.

Gen 21:10  and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac." 

Concubines or slaves are dismissed; wives are never dismissed except in the case of divorce.  Hagar was not married to Abraham, she was a slave and became a concubine once she engaged in coupling with Abraham.

In the case of Genesis 37:2 it says:  This is the account of Jacob. Joseph, a young man of seventeen, was tending the flocks with his brothers, the sons of Bilhah and the sons of Zilpah, his father's wives, and he brought their father a bad report about them. 


Wives is OT:802 meaning 'ishshah (ish-shaw'); feminine of OT:376 or OT:582; irregular plural, nashiym (naw-sheem'); a woman (used in the same wide sense as OT:582):

KJV - [adulter] ess, each, every, female, X many, + none, one, + together, wife, woman. Often unexpressed in English.

(New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary.)

Therefore as the authorative references quoted here state quite clearly here that wives in English has an entirely different meaning from the language of the Holy Bible's original languages.

Here is the Law concerning maidservants taken as concubines:

Lev 19:20-22

20 "'If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 
21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD. 
22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the LORD for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven. 

This is a special problem connected here because as a slave she was promised to another man.  The slave owner may have violated her through knowing her.  It was sin and a guilt offering had to be made in order for his sin to be forgiven.

The other parts of the law are found in Ex 21:7-11 and Deut 21:10-14.
=====

The Mosaic law forbade Polygamy:

Deut 17:17
He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold. 

Lev 18:18
"'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living. 

Moving on in scripture:

Mal 2:14-15
14 You ask, "Why?" It is because the LORD is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant. 
15 Has not [the LORD] made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth. 

Matt 19:4-11  Here you have Jesus testifying to one wife, one husband and the reason why.

4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'   
5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 
6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 
7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 
8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
10 The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry." 
11 Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given.


Mark 10:10-12 this is in reference to the two scriptures above.
11 He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 
12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." 


Paul talks about overseers of the church, not just the five fold ministry workers.  Deacons, elders, and overseers [not just five-fold ministry workers] are to have only one wife.  [Ref. 1 Timothy 3:1-2 and Titus 1-6]

You quoted 2 Samuel 12:11 but you should read the scriptures above which state who those wives actually were. 2 Sam 12:8 I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.  This is called the spoils of war.  The wives were the wives of Saul.

There is no doubt that polygamy was practiced in the OT but it was not God's intentions nor was it His perfect will.  It may have been His permissive will, but with permissive will there are consequences to our actions.  Permissive will incorporates sin into its permission.  It becomes our free will do decide how we want to walk; in judgment or in blessings [Deuteronomy 28].

==========

On Solomon:

1 Kings 11:3-6
3 He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 
4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. 
6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done. 

==========

On Moses: The NKJV calls her an Ethopian, and the NKV calls her a Cushite woman.

Here is what my research found:

Num 12:1-15

Verse 1. [The Ethiopian woman whom he had married] (Hebrew, "Cushite," compare Gen 2:13; 10:6) It is likely that Zipporah (Ex 2:21) was dead, and that Miriam in consequence expected to have greater influence than ever with Moses. Her disappointment at his second marriage would consequently be very great.

The marriage of Moses with a woman descended from Ham was not prohibited, so long as she was not of the stock of Canaan (compare Ex 34:11-16); but it would at any time have been offensive to that intense nationality which characterized the Jews. The Christian fathers note in the successive marriage of Moses with a Midianite and an Ethiopian a foreshadowing of the future extension to the Gentiles of God's covenant and its promises (compare Ps 45:9 ff; Song 1:4 ff); and in the complaining of Miriam and Aaron a type of the discontent of the Jews because of such extension: compare Luke 15:29-30.
(from Barnes' Notes; the comparisons are for note references and does not necessarily have to do with scripture references.)


==========

I am not doing any more research on this subject anymore, you will have to do your own research and provide that information.  And I am saying this one last time, cut the sarcasm and disrespect or you will be locked out.  Got it? ~Minister Falcon



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Edited 6/18/2003 5:04:55 PM ET by OSMFALCON 

From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/18/2003 1:53 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (29 of 46)  
 
  629.29 in reply to 629.27  
 
Stephen,

Read my posting to Scott on 629.28.  It answers your rebuttals. ~Minister Falcon
 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/18/2003 2:07 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (30 of 46)  
 
  629.30 in reply to 629.29  
 
Why is the word "wife" and "concubine" used interchangeably? 
In Gen. 25:1, Keturah is called Abraham's wife. However, in 1 Chron. 1:32 Keturah is called a concubine. Concubine is only used for second wives. I will concede only that much (I don't know why I am conceding as I never stated otherwise). 

I already posted the example where Nathan the prophet said "I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun" 
2 Sam. 12:11. 

Later ... the fulfilled prophecy : "And Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel;" (2 Sam. 16:22) 

Notice how the terms "concubine" and "wives" are used interchangeably. 

Also, just because the sons of the second wives were not considered heirs, they did recieve gifts. Furthermore, if the oldest son of the first wife is the chief heir, the is the second son of the same wife not a legitimate son? 

-Stephen 

P.S. "Read my posting to Scott on 629.28. It answers your rebuttals." 

Not really, you attempted to answer SOME of my rebuttals. 




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Edited 6/18/2003 5:35:34 PM ET by NEWSAINT1 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/18/2003 2:09 pm  
To:  ScottQuantz   (31 of 46)  
 
  629.31 in reply to 629.22  
 
Scott,

You said: Me: Don't you find it hypocritical to demand such a thing of others when you don't require it of yourself?  

What's up with that? You have repeatedly ask me for a rebuttal but when I ask you to provide reference you call me hypocritical?  Are you serious with this statement?  If you are, then you are calling yourself the same hypocrate that you say I am.  When clearly ALL my posts have multiple scriptures backing up the truth to my words.  I base my opinions not on my reasoning but on the scriptures themselves.  I align my thougths with scriptures not try to find scripture to align with my opinion.  That is backwards and an ungenerated mindset.  ~Minister Falcon
 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/18/2003 2:26 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (32 of 46)  
 
  629.32 in reply to 629.30  
 
Stephen,

You said:  Why is the word "wife" and "concubine" used interchangeably?

From my research it has to do with the order of things.  From a slave to a concubine to a wife.  The first wife, not a slave, nor serving as a concubine did not have the same stature as the concubine wife.  Therefore the first born son of the first wife was given a double portion of all that the father had as an inheritance. [Deuteronomy 21:15-17] The other children were given little in comparison.  The first son is considered the firstfruits and therefore holy unto God.  Everything in scripture of any first born, first crops, etc. was considered the firstfruits and holy unto God.  

Your quote of 2 Sam. 12:11 is true, that the curse for stealing another man's wife was fulfilled with Absalom.  And as you read further on the discourse of Absalom, you will find that David never entered into their bedroom again.  

You said:  Furthermore, if the oldest son of the first wife is the chief heir, the is the second son of the same wife not a legitimate son? 

The second son is legitimate if he comes from the first wife.  However, according to the law quoted and other scripture, the son of a concubine/slave wife was not given the same privileges of the legitimate sons.  You may recall that when Hagar was sent away, she was given just enough provisions for the journey for her son and herself.  They were not given any inheritance from Abraham, it all went to Isaac.  This is the root cause of the fighting we have now see in modern times between the Ishmaelites [Iran and other eastern remnants] and Israel today.  The Ishmaelites are trying to remove the sons of Isaac from the Promised Land so that they can set up their domain.  

=====

I may have missed some of your statements, but it was not intentional.  Please forgive me. ~Minister Falcon

 

 

  
 
 

 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/18/2003 2:35 pm  
To:  ScottQuantz unread  (34 of 46)  
 
  629.34 in reply to 629.24  
 
Scott,

You have been asked politely not to be sarcastic or disrespectful.  You have ignored my requested and continued to be sarcastic and disrespectful so therefore you are out of here!~ Minister Falcon



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Edited 6/18/2003 5:36:18 PM ET by OSMFALCON 
  
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Message 35 of 46 was Deleted    



  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/18/2003 6:03 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (36 of 46)  
 
  629.36 in reply to 629.34  
 
Hi OmsFalcon,

Glad that you are staying on top of things.

It's never any fun to ban someone but as you well know when it gets disruptive it ruins the forum for others.

Thanks,


God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/19/2003 7:59 am  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (37 of 46)  
 
  629.37 in reply to 629.1  
 
Hi,

According to the Bibles prophetic enactment of the crucifixion of Jesus Genesis Chapter 23, where Abraham offers his, only begotten and unmarried son, as a sacrifice on Mt. Moriah (Calvary) the same location where Jesus was later crucified. It is then after the sacrifice and in Genesis chapter 24 that the Bible reveals the sending of the servant Eliezer [Holy Spirit] (Gods Comforter) to go and to gather the bride for the unmarried Isaac, portraying an illustration of Jesus and His Church.

The Old Testament prophecies leave no room for any marriage of Jesus prior to His Cross and His Resurrection but do portray the Glorious Wedding union to the Church yet to come. Jesus could not marry the Church or any individual prior to the Cross as the remedy for sin did not yet exist. Any marriage prior to the Cross would mean that Jesus was marring a sinner and really teachings of an earthly marriage of Jesus are yet another false teaching that are an attempting to do away with the need of mankind for the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross and of His Glorious Resurrection.

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/23/2003 12:20 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (38 of 46)  
 
  629.38 in reply to 629.37  
 
I have demonstrated that Old Testament Patriarchs and priests who were "highly favored" of the Lord were also polygamists. In the case of David, God GAVE the wives of another to him. 
So if polygamy is such a horrible sin, then why did God still hold these polygamists in such high favor? Why did God give multiple wives to David? 

So you say "Well, God allowed him to have the wives even though it was still sinful." So, you are suggesting that God gave David something sinful to do, which is ridiculous. God cannot look upon sin with any degree of allowance, let alone advocate it. I do not have to explain much, the Bible is clear. 

If you want to talk about whether or not Jesus was married, then you will have to talk to Scott about that. He has his sources and research ready to go I am sure. Like I said before, your statements like "The Old Testament prophecies leave no room for any marriage of Jesus prior to His Cross and His Resurrection.." are baseless and without merit. 

Then you continue "...but do portray the Glorious Wedding union to the Church yet to come. Jesus could not marry the Church or any individual prior to the Cross as the remedy for sin did not yet exist. Any marriage prior to the Cross would mean that Jesus was marring a sinner and really teachings of an earthly marriage of Jesus are yet another false teaching that are an attempting to do away with the need of mankind for the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross and of His Glorious Resurrection." 

What a load of bull. You can't explain one lick of this tripe can you? How exactly would a marriage of Jesus "do away with the need of mankind for the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross..."? That makes no sense whatsoever. 

Futhermore, I already explained that the metaphor used to describe Christ and His church is just that ... a metaphor. And as Danite eloquently pointed out, since you do not believe in eternal marriage, perhaps you suppose that Christ will divorce his church in the resurrection which already began with Christ. 

-Stephen 

 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/23/2003 1:02 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (39 of 46)  
 
  629.39 in reply to 629.28  
 
Deut. 25: 5 
If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husbands brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husbands brother unto her. 
So you are adament about the Bible saying that polygamy is sinful, yet that does not explain the passage above. 

The Bible certainly does not contradict itself does it? Mormons say that polygamy is ONLY permitted when God commands it. Is that contra-Biblical? 

I do not see our teachings as contradicting the Bible in the slightest. Consider this: 

2 Samuel 12:7-8 
7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; 
8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. 

The prophet of God, Nathan, gave David "such things" this is confirmed in D&C 132: 39 - 
Davids wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; ... 

You can read the account for yourself in the Bible. It was only in the case of Uriah that David sinned. 

2 Samuel 12:9 
Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon. 

When Solomon came around, he allowed his wives to take his heart away from the Lord and into false worship. It was his marrying against God's will and allowing himself to be led away from the Lord which was the sin. 

1Kings11 
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 
6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father. 

So it is exactly the same teaching found in the Book of Mormon: 

Jacob 2:27-30 
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; 
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. 
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes. 
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; OTHERWISE they shall hearken unto these things. (emphasis mine) 

Here, it clearly states : IF God wants to RAISE SEED UNTO HIM, HE will "command my people;" 

God has used polygamy in the past to raise seed unto him. Which is exactly what early Mormons did, and ... 

"OTHERWISE they shall hearken unto these things." 

Otherwise, we are only to have one wife, and this the way God wants it. 

-Stephen 





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Edited 6/23/2003 4:40:25 PM ET by NEWSAINT1 
  
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From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/24/2003 9:04 am  
To:  NEWSAINT1    
 
    
 
Stephen,

In my research of the Holy Bible here is what God said in the OT about polygamy. 

1.  It is forbidden by God.  This pertained to Saul, the first king, not to the common people.  This is the first mention of polygamy being forbidden by God.  It is the moral law of God.  These are HIS words not mine.
Deuteronomy 17:14-17 
14 "When you come to the land which the LORD your God is giving you, and possess it and dwell in it, and say, 'I will set a king over me like all the nations that are around me,' 
15 you shall surely set a king over you whom the LORD your God chooses; one from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. 
16 But he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, for the LORD has said to you, 'You shall not return that way again.'
17 Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.   

2.  God was very clear about polygamy.  He forbade it!  These are His words, not mine.
Leviticus 18:18
Nor shall you take a woman as a rival to her sister, to uncover her nakedness while the other is alive. 

Leviticus 18:24-30
24 'Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. 
25 For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. 
26 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you 
27(for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled), 
28 lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 
29 For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people. 
30 Therefore you shall keep My ordinance, so that you do not commit any of these abominable customs which were committed before you, and that you do not defile yourselves by them: I am the LORD your God.' "


3.  You see God did not ordain polygamy; man did.  God did not want anyone to marry Gentiles [including all races, colors except Jews] because they were daughters of foreign gods.  Marriage to a wife was a covenant [v. 14] before God and not to be dissolved by man; but man instituted divorce, not God.  He made man and woman ONE in the spirit by the Spirit of God. [v.15]
Malachi 2:11, 14-15
11 Judah has dealt treacherously, and an abomination has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem, for Judah has profaned the LORD's holy institution which He loves: He has married the daughter of a foreign god. 
14 Yet you say, "For what reason?" Because the LORD has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, with whom you have dealt treacherously; yet she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 
15 But did He not make them one, having a remnant of the Spirit?  And why one?  He seeks godly offspring.  Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth. 

4.  Now we start with the NT in which Jesus was in agreement with the OT scripture above in v. 15. As He was in agreement with this, He was also in agreement that polygamy was not sanctioned by The Father.
Matthew 19:4-5
4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' 
5  and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 

5. The Pharisees tested Jesus concerning marriage.  And Jesus answered with the Law of Moses.  Again, Jesus said that divorce was granted by MAN not by the FATHER.  WHY?  Because of the hardness of the heart of man, not because GOD said it was ok.  It is not God's will that man be divorced from his wife.
Mark 10:2-8
2 The Pharisees came and asked Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" testing Him. 
3 And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?" 
4  They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her." 
5 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 
6 But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female.' 
7  'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
8  'and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 

6.  Now Paul adds his two cents worth here with regulations concerning leadership and laity.  Bishop being an overseer and deacon and a follower being the laity. 
1 Timothy 3:2
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 

1 Timothy 3:12
Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Titus 1:6
6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. 

====

7.  There is only ONE time that God permitted polygamy and that was when Saul and his children died in battle; David was given those wives to CARE FOR.  There is no where in the bible that states he slept with them.  

2 Samuel 12:7-9
8 I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! 

My commentary:
There is no doubt that polygamy was practiced by several men in the bible.  However, God did not ordain it as He, Himself spoke against it.  As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord.  And for you and your house, that's your choice to follow man or to follow the Lord.  Mormonism does not follow the Lord in this respect, but does follow what is pleasureable to the flesh as allowed by man's sinful nature. ~Minister Falcon

 
From:  NEWSAINT1   6/24/2003 12:49 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (41 of 46)  
 
  629.41 in reply to 629.40  
 
Well, I suppose that you have said your fill and I have said mine. It would be insulting to insinuate that the patriarchs of the Old Testament were perverts and adulterers. The Judeo-Christian world looks upon the history of the Bible with high regard and reverence. 
Yet when it comes to my people, our hardships, and our history, Christians have no problem misrepresenting, distorting, and even lying about our faith and what we believe. Is that how you guys intend on keeping people away from the "evil Mormon religion". 

I, on the other hand, will tell people the truth, and let them decide for themselves. 

-Stephen
 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/24/2003 1:58 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1   (42 of 46)  
 
  629.42 in reply to 629.41  
 
The truth of the word has been shown to you by the scriptures spoken by God and you have not accepted it.  

Men are not to compare man's doctrine with God's doctrine for that is a perversion in itself.  This is a standard rule for ALL religious doctrines and it has not been a singled out effort of this minister to discredit your Mormon history or its troubles.  

On the contrary, as you are trying to persuade me of the truth with scripture, I too am doing the same.  Yet I have not brought in my doctrine as you have...there is a strong remarkable difference in our approach to the subject of polygamy.  Yours is a combined effort of scripture and the Mormon [man's] doctrine.  I only used the word of God.

The distortion you speak about is not mine, my brother, but that it is the one who reads the Holy Bible and picks out those things that have been acceptable to flesh which is unrenewed and unregenerated. 

You, my brother, are not the problem.

2 Peter 3:15-18
15b as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.


It is that part of the Mormon doctrine that is in error passed down from generation to generation by those that have been unrenewed and unregenerated in their hearts.  They took the scriptures without a good foundational teaching, and twisted the scriptures to their own destruction, bringing others into the same fate.  This is not to say that some of your doctrine is not sound, if it is based upon scripture to scripture truth.  After all you do believe in being born again and Spirit filled and speaking in tongues.  All of this is the correct doctrine of Jesus Christ.  It is not man's doctrine.

Even though now you may not agree with scripture, you must ponder and take this to the Lord as it says in Philippians 4:6-7
6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 
7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 

Proverbs 12:1 

~Minister Falcon


 



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Edited 6/24/2003 5:36:00 PM ET by Minister Falcon (OSMFALCON) 
  
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  From:  NEWSAINT1   6/24/2003 2:37 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (43 of 46)  
 
  629.43 in reply to 629.42  
 
It is not the Bible that I do not agree with. It is your interpretation of the Bible. Isn't that why we have so many different denominations of Christianity today. 
Eph. 4 
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 

Has Christianity "come in the unity of the faith" ? Where are the prophets that are "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" 

With all these denominations, they can't all be right. Do you suppose that I am headed for damnation? 

I demonstrated that the Lord forbids polygamy UNLESS He otherwise commands it. That is the doctrine ... plain and simple. It has always been that way. The Book of Mormon states it in clear and simple words. That is what we believe. You can disagree with it, sure! But it is all interpretation. 

You interpret the Bible one way, I interpret it another way. Opinion this opinion that. Polygamy was practiced among Mormons because of their fear for God. They believed, just as I do, that the situation called for it and God said so. You may not think God did, and that is fine. Just try not to make it into something it was not. 

Brigham Young stated himself, that at the moment he realized he was commanded to take multiple wives, he was filled with dread. The saints were already being persecuted, this would make things worse, and they all knew it. 

-Stephen 

 
  
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Message 44 of 46 was Deleted    
From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     6/24/2003 3:33 pm  
To:  NEWSAINT1    
 
    
 
What you may not realize here Stephen is that I didn't interpret scripture.  I used scripture to interpret itself.  You aren't understanding this.  You are seeing me do exactly what you are doing and I am not.  

FYI:
1 gives background, no commentary.
2 commentary deleted.
3 gives background, no commentary
4 scripture interpreting scripture, no commentary.
5 scripture interpreting scripture, gives background information, no commentary.
6 Paul commentary, not mine.
7 in agreement with your assertion of God giving permission for polygamy ONE time.


1.  It is forbidden by God.  This pertained to Saul, the first king, not to the common people.  This is the first mention of polygamy being forbidden by God.  It is the moral law of God.  These are HIS words not mine.
Deuteronomy 17:14-17 
14 "When you come to the land which the LORD your God is giving you, and possess it and dwell in it, and say, 'I will set a king over me like all the nations that are around me,' 
15 you shall surely set a king over you whom the LORD your God chooses; one from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. 
16 But he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, for the LORD has said to you, 'You shall not return that way again.'
17 Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.   

2.  These are His words, not mine.
Leviticus 18:18
Nor shall you take a woman as a rival to her sister, to uncover her nakedness while the other is alive. 

Leviticus 18:24-30
24 'Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. 
25 For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. 
26 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you 
27(for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled), 
28 lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 
29 For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people. 
30 Therefore you shall keep My ordinance, so that you do not commit any of these abominable customs which were committed before you, and that you do not defile yourselves by them: I am the LORD your God.' "


3.  You see God did not ordain polygamy; man did.  God did not want anyone to marry Gentiles [including all races, colors except Jews] because they were daughters of foreign gods.  Marriage to a wife was a covenant [v. 14] before God and not to be dissolved by man; but man instituted divorce, not God.  He made man and woman ONE in the spirit by the Spirit of God. [v.15]
Malachi 2:11, 14-15
11 Judah has dealt treacherously, and an abomination has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem, for Judah has profaned the LORD's holy institution which He loves: He has married the daughter of a foreign god. 
14 Yet you say, "For what reason?" Because the LORD has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, with whom you have dealt treacherously; yet she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 
15 But did He not make them one, having a remnant of the Spirit?  And why one?  He seeks godly offspring.  Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth. 

4.  Now we start with the NT in which Jesus was in agreement with the OT scripture above in v. 15. As He was in agreement with this, He was also in agreement that polygamy was not sanctioned by The Father.
Matthew 19:4-5
4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' 
5  and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 

5. The Pharisees tested Jesus concerning marriage.  And Jesus answered with the Law of Moses.  Again, Jesus said that divorce was granted by MAN not by the FATHER.  WHY?  Because of the hardness of the heart of man, not because GOD said it was ok.  It is not God's will that man be divorced from his wife.
Mark 10:2-8
2 The Pharisees came and asked Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" testing Him. 
3 And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?" 
4  They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her." 
5 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 
6 But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female.' 
7  'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
8  'and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 

6.  deleted. Bishop being an overseer and deacon and a follower being the laity. 
1 Timothy 3:2
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 

1 Timothy 3:12
Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Titus 1:6
6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. 

====

7.  There is only ONE time that God permitted polygamy and that was when Saul and his children died in battle; David was given those wives to CARE FOR.  There is no where in the bible that states he slept with them.  

2 Samuel 12:7-9
8 I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! 

My commentary: deleted ~Minister Falcon

Now does that help you read the word of God without my commentary or interpretation?

 From:  NEWSAINT1   6/24/2003 6:21 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (46 of 46)  
 
  629.46 in reply to 629.45  
 
<<<...for the LORD has said to you, 'You shall not return that way again.' 
17 Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away;>>> 
I never said that men can multiply wives unto themselves. I said only when the Lord permits it. 

<<<He has married the daughter of a foreign god. >>> 

I never said that men should marry Gentiles outside of the covenant that would lead them away from the Lord. 

<<<There is only ONE time that God permitted polygamy and that was when Saul and his children died in battle; David was given those wives to ...>>> 

There is only ONE time recorded in the Bible. No book can write the entire history of the world and man's dealings with God. 

John 21: 25 
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. 

Furthemore it seems that second wives can have legitimate heirs. You said otherwise. 

Abraham's Grandson was Jacob. He served Laban seven years for Rachel, but Laban deceived him, and Leah became his wife instead. So he served another seven years for Rachel. He married them both and 
they were both wives. The account of this service, Laban's deception and the two marriages can be found in Genesis 29:18-35 and 30:3-12. In addition one can also read about how each of these wives had a handmaid and Jacob was given each of these handmaids as concubines and they also had children by him. Jacob was renamed Israel by the Lord and by each of these four women, he had children. In all, from 
these four wives, he had 12 sons who became the Patriarchs of the 12 Tribes of Israel. The sons who obtained the most significant blessings were Judah and Joseph. Judah was the son of the first wife, Leah and Joseph was the son of the second wife, Rachel. 

Therefore the son of the second wife was, in fact, an heir. This particular son, Joseph who was the son of the second wife, has particularly significant blessings in his posterity. 

And...Deut. 25: 5 
If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husbands brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husbands brother unto her. 

Does this or does this not call for the practice of plural marriage? In some circumstances yes (if the man is already married), and in others no. Also, Jesus give a parable about a plural marriage. And we know how seriously you like to take parables. Matt. 25 

Levi. 18 looks like it is talking about not being able to marry close kin. We know why God doesn't want this. And assuming that David did not "know" his wives is extra-biblical interpretation which I am not sure is warranted. 

2 Sam. 12Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 

12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. 

-Stephen 

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Edited 6/24/2003 9:43:40 PM ET by NEWSAINT1 
  
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